How is Maha Mia?

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Brad_Evans
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Post by Brad_Evans »

Mainly because..when Maha gets attacked by those Guardians..you see those little uh..I dont know "special effects" going on [I know,I'm Dead tired at the moment and I cant get a word to describing those little sprites things or whatever that appear around her],it was the same when Ginkan was DDed and then Tsukasa,if you had noticed.So that means she was DDed by the Guardians and just like how DD rewrites Data..Maha was rewritten in Mia,simple as that.
Hmmm, that attack being a small version of DD is quite logical, considering that Ginkan didn't just simply go back to where he last saved ^^; But the point why I can't consider it as DD is becuase Ginkan didn't go to coma. But mayb the guardian can adjust its DD level Xb
We know its the truth,we have admited to that..but Geez,some of us like to call Mia a girl..just let it go already.
oh, ok ^^;; I think it can't be helped.
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CRtwenty
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Post by CRtwenty »

Why, is Mia a guy? I really don't see why that would be true.
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Post by Duskino »

CRtwenty wrote:Why, is Mia a guy? I really don't see why that would be true.
Heh, I'd say the same for the "Hotaru is a boy" thing.

But this is about Mia.

I don't see why Mia would be a guy either. She's fond of Elk. Elk's a guy. Okay, so guy and guy stuff isn't horrible, but I can't see Mia being gay XD; *cough* ANYWAY. And as mentioned by other members, Mia seems to have those "girl parts", and acts like how a female would. As for the whole "boku" thing, I don't think it's only the male way to say "I/me". It still means the same, but it has another meaning to it, or something... if I remember correctly, that is, but I kinda forgot what it was...

But yeah. I can't swade anybody's opinions about her ^^;[/i]
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Post by CRtwenty »

Ok... time for a little more in depth dicussion on this. Technically Mia is a Wandering A.I. so she really has no gender at all, but:

Mia using male words to describe herself seems to really be the only excuse for people thinking she's male. But, Tsukasa did the exact same thing, does this mean that Tsukasa is actually male as well? (What a surprise for Subaru!)

Evidence for Mia being Male:
1. Uses male language to describe herself

Evidence for Mia being Female:
1. She's the Temptress for Pete's sake! That implies she's female
2. Has female voice actresses
3. Seems to have a female personality, speaks in a more feminine way. (Disregarding her use of Male language in describing herself)
4. Her relationship with Elk (again not a sure thing, but I really don't see Elk being interested in that kind of relationship)
5. Mia, is a female name (again not a sure thing)

Therefore there is only one conclusion... Mia is an asexual cabbit who wants to use Elk as a host for her parasitic offspring! :P
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Post by Tsunami the Silver Dragon »

CRtwenty wrote: Evidence for Mia being Male:
1. Uses male language to describe herself

Evidence for Mia being Female:
1. She's the Temptress for Pete's sake! That implies she's female
2. Has female voice actresses
3. Seems to have a female personality, speaks in a more feminine way. (Disregarding her use of Male language in describing herself)
4. Her relationship with Elk (again not a sure thing, but I really don't see Elk being interested in that kind of relationship)
5. Mia, is a female name (again not a sure thing)
Well put. So with all these reasons we have our answer now don't we?

.............And does anyone know what the heck is wrong with the board?

Why does it all say 1969? Did we get hit with a virus or something?
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Post by thedudewhosadude »

It says that because God hates you! Sorry, i just lurve saying that to people. (Obvoiusly I'm just kidding, sorry if you were religiously offended) Anyway, going back to the whole Mia thing, I think Mia could be a male, as there is the whole voice-changer thingie. As an AI, I imagine Mia would have more access to it. Also, Elk might be interested in that kind of a relationship, because (in my not quite so humble opinion) a person you love is a person who you understand and like in general. Gender doesn't really enter into love, society just makes others feel that what they're doing is wrong. Elk said that Mia was the only friend he had (aside from you when you give him a nice gift) and Elk changed due to Mia. He used to be shy and somewhat selfish ("GIMME TEH BRACELET!") but by the end of the game he became compassionate and generous, even so generous to sacrafice his life for someone who killed (in a way) his only friend. Honestly, I don't think that Elk would care if Mia was a guy or a girl, kinda like Subaru and Tsukasa.
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The Macha-Mia Relationship

Post by Silence »

The Guardian attacks are indeed Data Drain attacks. They're just miniature versions of Data Drain - that's why they put Ginkan into a coma for a few days, rather than semi-permanently. I cannot understand at all why you would believe so strongly that the attack isn't Data Drain just because it only had a temporary effect ON Ginkan, Brad Evans. That doesn't make sense at all. Skeith's Data Drain attack only had a temporary effect when it was used on Mia and Tokuoka, after all. And obviously there are many different types of Data Drain - Kite's DD is different in many ways from the DD used by the Phases, and Morganna has her own, supreme version of DD (Drain Heart, wasn't it called?) which she used on Tsukasa late in the SIGN series. So why shouldn't Guardians have their own Data Drain?

Besides, you're ignoring one important fact - those 'rings' you can see in the middle of Guardians are actually Twilight Bracelets XD You know, the item Kite uses to Data Drain? Feel silly now, don't you?

On Mia/Macha - Hm. I have my own theories on the matter. But this is a very interesting discussion, which is why I'm contributing...

My theory is that all of the Phases have been altered by Morganna from Harald's original programming. That's why they all look so incredibly freaky and bizarre when you fight them - the original versions made by Harald probably look more like Macha: creative, but still obviously drawing on fantasy and mythological references, and not so bizarre as to not even seem remotely human like the Phases you fight do.

I think that Morganna altered the Phases physically when she changed their original programming to fit her new, more aggressive goals. Macha was the only Phase who we ever saw manifested as Harald intended for his Epitaph of Twilight-based event, because Macha was the first Phase created, and also because when Macha was created was the only time Morganna needed a Phase for non-combat reasons - she needed Macha to help convince Tsukasa to stay in The World, not to kick Kite's ass or hunt down Aura or destroy Net Slum whatever. :P

My theory is supported by the obvious differences between Macha's cat-wizard form and all of the Phases when you fight them (including Macha). When you Data Drain a Phase, it transforms into a dull, broken, incomplete version of itself, basically just shrinking down and dissolving in pieces as though most but not all of its 'viral' nature had been drained from it by Kite. When Macha as cat-player, however, was Data Drained, she simply became a player-ish wandering AI: Mia. Perhaps in Harald's original programming, all the Phases were supposed to turn into harmless AIs like that once they were beaten, but that too was changed when Morganna warped their purpose.

So, to explain what happens to Macha/Mia - First she's created in the form intended for her by Harald for the secret 'The Wave' event he hid within The World's programming as a special quest with the end goal of turning Aura into the 'Perfect AI.' She looks pretty harmless, at least compared to those bizarre Phases you battle in the .hack games. Eventually she decides to turn against Morganna and help Tsukasa because she's touched by his kindness, and as a result Morganna has the Twilight Guardians use their miniature version of Data Drain on Macha. Macha's data is scattered across The World, and when it finally re-gathers itself it's in the form of Mia; Mia is, essentially, the true Macha's 'data drain monster' form - just like Mushroom Kings become Twinkle Grass when Data Drained, Macha becomes the player-character-ish AI Mia.

Anyway, everything's going fine for Mia until the Phases start getting destroyed, which causes her to slowly start transforming back into Macha. The only problem is, since Morganna's new versions of the Phases (started when she created Skeith) are the bizarre warped combat-oriented ones, Mia starts to turn into THAT Macha - the one you finally fight as Phase 6 of the Wave. If Morganna hadn't gone against her original programming, what probably would have happened would simply have been Mia turning back into the kitty-cat wizard Macha in order for her to re-assume her role as the Phase. Actually, come to think of it, if the original programming had been followed, Macha wouldn't have been created to begin with until it was her turn to gather data on stuff for 'Phase 6.' Macha being created first, before even Skeith, was probably another one of Morganna's interferences to further her own goals, in that case keeping control of Tsukasa so Aura couldn't awaken.

Anyway, the only thing I'm unclear on is why the warped phase Macha turns back to normal Macha after being destroyed, while the other Phases seem to simply be deleted. Since warped-Macha turns into kitty-Macha (and finally all the way back into Mia, when you re-recruit her in the bonus dungeon after beating QUARANTINE), the other Phases should also have turned into their normal forms eventually when destroyed, and perhaps showed up after Morganna was finally done away with and they could show their true natures. But that doesn't happen. Maybe the reason Macha's the only Phase who returns is because she's the only Phase who was ever given a chance to develop a real Artificial Intelligence... she even forms a personality, as a result of being given a chance to interact with Tsukasa while in kitty-wizard form. The other Phases were ALWAYS warped from the moment they were first manifested by Morganna, so they never had a chance to develop any real intelligence beyond Morganna's will. Thus, there was no point in them re-forming after they were destroyed. What I'm saying is, maybe the reason the Phases didn't become normal versions of themselves after being destroyed, like Macha became normal after her Phase was over, is because the Phases didn't WANT to be reformed... they didn't care one bit, they didn't have any sort of intelligence yet, so they were fine with being deleted once their original purpose of collecting data and facing Kite was fulfilled. Only Macha cared about continuing its own existence, so only Macha re-manifested yet again after being defeated, and, after being saved from Morganna's virus remnants in that annoyingly huge dungeon she gladly rejoins the party... after becoming Mia again, though. Hmmm... I haven't gotten that far in the .hack games, so can anyone tell me how exactly it happens? I hear Macha fights you once, while combined with a virus creature after a few other battles at the bottom of the dungeon... if that's true it would support my theory about Macha -> Mia when DDed, since kitty-Macha transforms into Mia when you DD her at the end of QUARANTINE just like she became Mia near the end of SIGN when a bunch of Guardians DDed her. Though even if that doesn't happen, doesn't mean my theory's automatically wrong... Macha could become Mia again just because she WANTS to, there's no way of knowing whether she can just change forms when she wills it... and there are other explanations too.. but whatever, I won't go into any more details with my (rather tangentially related to the games, but, heck, I don't really care as long as it sounds neat and makes good fanfic fodder XD) theory. Not until I get some feedback and clarification on what happens after you fight Phase 6 Macha, and when you re-recruit Mia at the end of QUARANTINE...

Any thoughts? :O

(btw, I'm new to the board, just got linked to her from GameFAQs, and very glad to have found a place like this ^^ so.. HI! hahehahe...)
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Post by Cyral »

Whoa alot of reading, it's even nicer to the one I read in the Easter Egg in Quarantine!

But anyways.. I have to disagree..

[spoiler]That doesn't make sense at all. Skeith's Data Drain attack only had a temporary effect when it was used on Mia and Tokuoka, after all. [/spoiler]

Tokouka is just a human and the fact that he could just go into a coma, of course, Skeith can put people into a coma, since it's the one who put Sora into a coma and turned into a Staff for Skeith. But Mai Minase, has a sharp hearing, whenever she's in danger of being in a coma, subconciously(sue me for spelling) it protects her. Can you possibly agree with me here that since Mai snapped out of the game without going into a coma and yet her boyfriend(Tomanari Kasumi) went into a coma which he never got out of till the end of Liminality?

Although I can agree with you that, some of the phases Data Drain are nothing compared to Kite's Data Drain which has ultimate version of the Data Drain, which was Drain Heart.
My theory is that all of the Phases have been altered by Morganna from Harald's original programming. That's why they all look so incredibly freaky and bizarre when you fight them - the original versions made by Harald probably look more like Macha: creative, but still obviously drawing on fantasy and mythological references, and not so bizarre as to not even seem remotely human like the Phases you fight do.
The Phases are pretty much Morganna, the only reason why it became corrupted is that Harold Hoerwick didn't know squat about woman, and the fact that he just gave birth to this program solely to give birth to this ultimate AI, which can think like a human and make decisions like a human, but for girls, most girls would want a (abortion, no seriously there are some parents who would do it, and this is not a joke either but in this case..) She wants to corrupt this Ultimate AI to make it her own,(Of course I'm going by Helba's Emails at the end of Quarantine). I think the phases were made by Morganna and not Harold Hoerwick into form in which it was feared. (Like a certain thing involving a movie which I cannot remember)

I think that Morganna altered the Phases physically when she changed their original programming to fit her new, more aggressive goals. Macha was the only Phase who we ever saw manifested as Harald intended for his Epitaph of Twilight-based event, because Macha was the first Phase created, and also because when Macha was created was the only time Morganna needed a Phase for non-combat reasons - she needed Macha to help convince Tsukasa to stay in The World, not to kick Kite's ass or hunt down Aura or destroy Net Slum whatever.
That's true, but half right, she wanted to destroy Kite, remember in Infection where an event saying that they sent a monster then Balmung killed it then later got revived into a Data Bug? She wanted to eliminate Kite cause of the book that he had. One of the Easter Eggs has shown that: Data Bugs are like the guards to Morganna.(Yeah yeah I know I know kind of corny but quite true.)


By the way... at the end of Quarantine, you fight Tsukasa's Guardian Macha, not hard at all. But her memories were reset(no data drain but beaten normally) and well she was beaten, and going back to infection were you first meet her. She remembers Elk, but not Kite and everything else about her was reset.

**Edited by Cyral:**

I completely forgot, one thing, You first fight Macha as just another Guardian with a bracelet in the middle. The you fight her in her second form which has her in the middle, and transforms herself into the bracelet, then once you beat her, without Data Drain, she just gets her memories reset everything that happened to her is gone and she remembers nothing except for Elk.. doesn't remember who Kite is.
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Post by CRtwenty »

Actually, I believe it was Aura the revived Macha, remember how she sent Kite and Elk the E-mail detailing the location of the dungeon? I think that she brought Macha/Mia back as a sort of "reward" for her services, as Macha/Mia played a very important role in her birth and awakening.

As the Ultimate A.I. I'm pretty certain Aura could revive the Phases if she so desired, but as she has no real reason to, she simply revived the only one that had matured enough to think on its own. Macha.

And the Guardian cannot Data Drain the only times we see it use that ability is when it is either being piloted by a Phase (Macha) or Morganna herself (episode 25). They're just using their own data drain ability through the Monster, the Monster itself cannot data drain.
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Replyage

Post by Silence »

Hn, k, reply time.

I don't understand your explanation for Tokuoka - aren't all the coma victims 'just human's? :P Mai's explanation is clearer, but I haven't seen that theory substantiated by the games or Liminality, and there are other possible interpretations for why she was the only one who came out of her coma early after being DDed by a Phase. For example, my current favorite theory is that people playing The World have the electrical impulses in their body recorded by their headsets into 'The World' while they're playing, and a map of how their bodies and minds work is copied into the game in the form of an AI. The longer someone plays 'The World', the more accurate and sophisticated the AI double becomes, until finally the AI is a near-exact mirror of the real thing. Then, when the AI and the real player are doubled onto each other, something done to the AI can actually affect the player in the real world, allowing Data Drain to be used to put people into real comas. The point of this theory is, that the only people, thus, who would be immune to Data Drain, would be people who have been playing 'The World' for only a short time and thus haven't had a very accurate map of their bodies copied onto their AI shadow. They would only be slightly affected by being Data Drained into a coma. And that explains perfectly why Mai was only knocked unconscious briefly while Sieg remained in a coma through QUARANTINE - Mai was a total newbie and hadn't had her brain scanned thoroughly enough for Data Drain to effect her a lot. The same applies to Tokuoka - even if he's played the game a lot in the past, being a developer-ish person, he was using Sieg's account at the time he was Data Drained so he probably would have completely inaccurate information for his and Skeith's Data Drain would only have a temporary effect like it did on Mai. I just like that theory 'cause it answers a lot of things. It also clears up the real reason Helba orchestrated the beginning of INFECTION so that Orca would lose the Book of Twilight and Kite would get it (I bet she coulda saved Orca if she wanted to, looking at that scene..) - Aura gave the Book to Orca because she was seeking the strongest player she could find, but being a strong player in this case was actually a disadvantage because you'd be completely vulnerable to being put in a coma. A newbie like Kite, however, would be immune to the comas long enough for him to figure out how to use the Bracelet, giving him a fighting chance. (And once he knew how to use the Bracelet, he and everyone in his party was immune to Data Drain anyway, except for its annoying in-game effects - the Book of Twilight protected them from being Protect Broken).

I know the Phases are Morganna, too. The Wave = The 8 Phases = Morganna. Or rather, the Phases are the physical manifestations of Morganna's will. They aren't EXACTLY Morganna, though - obviously Macha is able to disobey Morganna, so she has her own seperate AI too. And, other than Phase 8, the different Phases kinda seem to have their own unique personalities from Morganna, too... they're more like pieces of Morganna that were broken off in order to perform various functions, than things that are still nothing but a part of Morganna's consciousness. That's why y'never hear a Phase talking with Morganna's voice.. they have their OWN voices in some cases.

Anyway, then you talk about abortions.. that I don't understand at all.. Interesting metaphor.. I guess? But not really accurate... Morganna wanted to kill Aura because she didn't want to be replaced by Aura, not because she wanted to "corrupt this ultimate AI to make it her own"... the only reason Aura was warped in SIGN was to make it easier to delete her, obviously...

Your last sentence doesn't make sense either. What do you mean, the Phases were made by Morganna, not Harald? I suggested that Morganna altered them to better serve her new programming, but it's obvious that Harald is the one who originally created the Phases' names and true purposes in 'The World', since those were based on the Epitaph and he's the one who introduced all the Epitaph story elements secretly into The World.

Anyway, next paragraph.. And oi, it's odd how the more you talk the less sense you make... grammarrrr ;.; I don't get what you're saying here. How on earth am I only half right?! I didn't say that Morganna DIDN'T want Kite gone, I said that Macha was a Phase created for solely non-combat reasons and that's an explanation for why she needed a seperate form from her battle-Phase form... and what the HECK do Data Bugs have to do with any of that?! I think you're getting mixed up here, or I'm even more lost than I thought...

Anyway, next for CRTwenty...

I don't know anything about that. Like I said, I haven't made it that far into the games yet, I'm still just starting OUTBREAK, but I decided to contribute to this thread 'cause I'm really interested in this stuff ^^;; And I guess that's a possibility too. Or maybe Macha did form on her own, and Aura just tracked Macha down and sent you the directions to her? Either way could work fine... Aura creating Macha makes sense, she should be able to control the Phases if she wants to now that she's replaced Morganna... but we have no way of finding out for sure... hn. Oh well.

And I know that Twilight Guardians are able to Data Drain because of them being a creation of Macha or sometimes Morganna... why does the fact that they get their Data Drain power from another being, mean that they don't have the power to DD? Because they do, that's how they use the power several times. o.O It's just not an inherent power, it had to be given to them by something. Kite's DD ability was given to him by Aura, but that doesn't mean that Kite doesn't have the power to use Data Drain, it just means that it's not a natural ability with him like it is with Morganna and Morganna's direct creations, the Phases... But yeah, dunno why we're getting into technicalities so much on this, we all understand how the Guardians work already... (And yes, I know I'm going to get a reply to this paragraph on the Twilight Guardians, even though 'tis probably unnecessary... oh well, fire away.)
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Post by Cyral »

Morganna was after Kite, because he has the ability to destroy the phases.
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Um...?

Post by Silence »

Yeah, I know. That's pretty obvious. My question was, why are you saying something that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with anything else discussed on this thread? o.O;; Did you misread one of the things I said about Macha?

Explain...
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Post by CRtwenty »

Well in Tokuoka's case Mai was able to disconnect him and rip off his headset before he was completely data drained... she disconnected him mid drain, which is why it took him several minutes to recover, he needed time for his mind to resynch with his body.

As for Mai herself... I personally believe that she was able to hear the "AI Note" that plays whenever a major AI appears, and was able to disconnect herself in time as well... as it is very likely that Sieg stepped in to protect her and got attacked first, giving her time to remove her headset.

As a newbie Mai wouldn't have the close connection to her character that the other players would, so the obvious choice to make when confronted with a situation like this would be to simply return to the real world, rather then try to save your in-game avatar. However her close proximity to a phase, is what may have resulted in her unconsciousness...

Or maybe she just hit herself on the head when she took off her headset.
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Re: Um...?

Post by Cyral »

Silence wrote:Yeah, I know. That's pretty obvious. My question was, why are you saying something that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with anything else discussed on this thread? o.O;; Did you misread one of the things I said about Macha?

Explain...
Oh yeah, I must've misread the whole entire part of that

I think?
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Post by brassmonkey »

but.. but hack sign occurred b4 the games right?

so before hack sign. maha was who? was maha even a real life player?
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