Mia and Elk, how would it ends? Theories please

Rhyste · Post by **Rhyste** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:02 pm

Which goes back to the age old theory of Mia being the person who died in Fragments.

ichi · Post by **ichi** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:53 pm

Wait.... I just had a thought (possibly induced by those 3000 volts I got this morning during our experiment with the Tesla coil- safe science, always!) AIs can't be considered people. The proposition that "AIs can think for themselves because they are programmed that way" is a contradiction. If something is at all "programmed," then it is told what to do, therefore, told to think, learn act sad, happy, etc. Sorry, I couldn't help but make this intelligent post. [/smartness]
[/dumbness break]

Invisible Egg! · Post by **Invisible Egg!** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:07 pm

I think the key traits that distinguish people from AIs are free will, creativity, and sentience. An artificial being that doesn't display these traits is clearly not a person, but sometimes AIs mimic these traits so well that it's difficult to tell.

Andy00 · Post by **Andy00** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:45 am

But what if an AI _did_ show these traits?

Spoilers for SIGN

[spoiler] Tell me, was Maha supposed to have helped Tsukasa in the series? No, she wasn't. She _chose_ to do so, of her own free will. [/spoiler]

I don't think you guys get the horror we're supposed to be feeling when Lios is killing off all the Wandering AIs. They're becoming people. He's commiting genocide.

ichi · Post by **ichi** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:00 pm

That's in the show. Plus, a reminder, no need for spoiler tags here. You see, AIs may be created to where Input Information(hearing, seeing, touching) will become their "Knowledge." They will never create or discover something unless they are told to or see it somewhere (i.e. create their own unique work of art.) That would be fun, though! Yeah, virtual art buddy! ^ easy payments of $40,000 (due to inflation 500 years from now)

Andy00 · Post by **Andy00** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:06 pm

Interesting. Where are you getting these definitions? AI's can only do this, AI's can only do that. Is this ever mentioned in any of the .hack series?

And I don't see why my example doesn't count because it's just from the anime. They're all the same world.

Oh, regarding the AI possibly downloading themselves into someone's mind. That's what I originally thought Moruti had done with the girl hacker in the anime of Udeden. I can't shake the feeling that's what would of happened had they not run out of episodes.

Invisible Egg! · Post by **Invisible Egg!** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:37 pm

In addition to free will, creativity, and sentience, I think people have an innate ability to learn/evolve/better themselves, which some AIs do have. Does anyone remember Data on Star Trek: The Next Generation? Several episodes focused on whether or not he was a "real person", entitled to the basic rights of people. Eventually it was decided that he qualified as a person; he was just made out of different material. I can't remember how they justified the ruling, but I think it had to do with the traits I've mentioned.

So my point is this: If the AIs in .hack are advanced enough to possess these important traits, then I think anything is possible regarding them, including Elk and Mia having a "real" relationship.

ichi · Post by **ichi** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:08 pm

I really didn't get the definition of AI by itself. Think about it and you'll understand what I did. I looked into "artificial"-"Unnatural, man made, inorganic, etc." "Intelligence" -"knowledge." That doesn't include "personality," "emotion," or other things we apply. That could possibly be labled as"AH"- artificial human! Really, AIs could be programmed to act like they had an emotion (cause>effect i.e.
IF Insulted=TRUE
THEN Emotion=Unhappy)
That's about as close as I think you could get.

Niu · Post by **Niu** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:49 pm

To me the only difference is being organic and inorganice.

Our brain is just like a big hard ware. Each part f our brian allows us to think certain way. And the only speical thing is it is organic.

For AI, I just see they are composed of inorganic material and that is it.

And how good AI can be it is all depand on their hardware. And no hard ware is perfec since even human brain ahs the thinking pattern it can't handle. So it'll eb wrong to accuse AI for not being people that they don't have certain thking traits. Bah they can do that to us as well we don't posses some thikning traits too.

So as long as they get an ardware as good as human brain, I consider them people. And not necessarily exactly same as human brain, as long as it matches human brain in their capbility.

ichi · Post by **ichi** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:06 pm

Umm.... I was kind of meaning that their "brain" matches the capability of what they (put sensory action here.) They are limited to what their creator gives them and what they come in contact with. Humans know certain things right off. Breathing, eating, (not considering anerexics) etc. As mentioned, human creativity is another thing. Curiosity, too. Calculators only add because they're told to. 2+2=4. That's all they do. Humans can add when they want, but they can also ask themselves, "Why do two 2's make one 4? Why not something else?" Ergo, it's a bit more different than being made of cells

Niu · Post by **Niu** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:18 pm

The thing is, human also needs outside infleuence inorder to think. That is same us AI. Human won't just suddenly pops out of idea out of nowhere unless certain out side infleuence.

And never the less if human do can develop thoughts out of nowhere, Maha sure did. Protetcing Tsaukasa from organa is one, that act is far from her original programming especially when Maha is a part of Morgana yet she still act against her. This shows Maha didn't just act as whatever her creator programed her to do.

To me the onyl difference is the material that compsoe of their brain.

Rhyste · Post by **Rhyste** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:34 pm

To Andy: If Maha had never sacrificed himself, would the Twilight, which Harold wanted to occur, have occured?

ichi · Post by **ichi** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 10:45 pm

Niu wrote:And never the less if human do can develop thoughts out of nowhere, Maha sure did. Protetcing Tsaukasa from organa is one, that act is far from her original programming especially when Maha is a part of Morgana yet she still act against her. This shows Maha didn't just act as whatever her creator programed her to do.

THAT'S FROM A FANTASY SHOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, back to what I said. Ahem, what do you think inspired the shape of an "E." yes, the straight lines are pretty, don't you agree? Now, that idea included straight lines. Who got the idea for straight lines? There is no true straight in nature. Go and tell me something tht is, on its own, unobstructed straightness. Also, languages. Not all languages were outwardly inspired. And, here's a biggie: fantasy. Can something outward inspire someone to create a non existant world? The original fantasy obviously was not outwardly inspired very much! Therefore, humans do *not* necessarily need outward inspiration. A computer can only write a book with words that it has had typed into its dictionary.

Xeno · Post by **Xeno** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:57 pm

Invisible Egg! wrote:I think the key traits that distinguish people from AIs are free will, creativity, and sentience. An artificial being that doesn't display these traits is clearly not a person, but sometimes AIs mimic these traits so well that it's difficult to tell.

Well, I always thought it was more along the lines of the fact that an AI cannot have soul...but thats just me.

Rubedo · Post by **Rubedo** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:41 am

I've tried to keep out of this topic for several reasons. One, I love machines way to much for my own good. And two, I was afraid that I would get way to caught up in this topic. And I won't mention the other reasons. But anyway, to the topic at hand.

I really don't see what the big deal is. I mean, if I was Elk, I would probably be doing the same thing.

THAT'S FROM A FANTASY SHOW

And ichi, what do you think this topic is about.